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| McDonald |
Posted: 2009/1/21 6:50 Updated: 2009/1/21 16:01 |
Home away from home   Joined: 2007/12/4 From: Abyss Posts: 1450 |
 Re: We're On Trac! When visiting http://trac.impresscms.org/core/browser/releases I see all different releases/versions of ImpressCMS core, but what happened to the trunk version of the core? |
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| Vaughan |
Posted: 2009/1/21 16:01 Updated: 2009/1/21 16:01 |
Home away from home  Joined: 2007/12/4 From: Derbyshire/UK Posts: 1672 |
Re: We're On Trac! the trunk isn't a release, only versions that have actually been publicly released are in the releases directory.
you need to login to view the trunk etc.
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| pnlarsson |
Posted: 2009/1/23 19:41 Updated: 2009/1/23 19:41 |
Just popping in   Joined: 2008/1/10 From: Gothenburg Posts: 13 |
Re: We're On Trac! Where did the openess of impresscms go?
If trunk and branches are not visible in trac, where can they bee seen?
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| MrTheme |
Posted: 2009/1/23 21:48 Updated: 2009/1/23 21:50 |
Home away from home  Joined: 2007/12/4 From: Fort Worth, TX Posts: 2588 |
Re: We're On Trac! Anyone can get access - all they have to do is sign up. Read above for details.
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| skenow |
Posted: 2009/1/23 22:47 Updated: 2009/1/23 22:47 |
Home away from home Joined: 2007/12/4 From: Eagan, MN (GMT-6) Posts: 2446 |
Re: We're On Trac! Yep - the trunk and branches are all there in Trac and available to all the developers. Those interested in joining the other developers can apply for access - http://community.impresscms.org/mod ... ?form_id=2The tremendous activity in the last year was both blessing and a burden - we found that release branches had been created from different branch points, causing some confusion over where the next branch will come from. We felt it best to not have code out there that could lead to more problems down the road, so Marc and Vaughan have spent the past few weeks sorting through the recent changes, merging several branches and getting us back on the same page. We're also taking this opportunity to establish more discipline in our development approach with more code reviews, code audits, a mentor system for developers new to the project, proper code freezes during release phases and clearer road maps. Once a release phase starts with a beta release, that branch will also be moved into the public area of Trac. No secrets, just a more disciplined approach. |
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| tester |
Posted: 2009/1/29 3:44 Updated: 2009/1/29 3:44 |
Just popping in Joined: 2008/8/24 From: Posts: 5 |
Re: We're On Trac! Quote: No secrets, just a more disciplined approach The "more disciplined approach" is good for developers who want to post code. As a user I just want to download the trunk as "anonymous" without being forced to login. That's how it was on SourceForge, and that's how it should be here. Unless it's really about "secrets"... |
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| McDonald |
Posted: 2009/1/29 8:12 Updated: 2009/1/29 8:12 |
Home away from home Joined: 2007/12/4 From: Abyss Posts: 1450 |
Re: We're On Trac! The trunk is not for testing but for development purposes. For testing we got alphas, betas and release candidates. But I think the option for downloading the different releases should be enabled. See at the bottom of this page of Trac. |
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| pnlarsson |
Posted: 2009/1/29 8:25 Updated: 2009/1/29 8:25 |
Just popping in Joined: 2008/1/10 From: Gothenburg Posts: 13 |
Re: We're On Trac! I still can't understand why you need to login to see what is happening?
Why not leave it open for everybody to see?
So there will not be any SVN-commit mailing list either? (I know it's available in the trac timeline - but then you need a account...)
I haven't found any other open-source project that hides the development like this.
Sorry it i'm nagging, but this sercretish is giving a bad feeling, and going against all i believe open-source stands for.
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| MrTheme |
Posted: 2009/1/29 10:22 Updated: 2009/1/29 10:24 |
Home away from home Joined: 2007/12/4 From: Fort Worth, TX Posts: 2588 |
Re: We're On Trac! Well, I am absolutely in no official capacity to respond to this, but hell I'll give it a go.
The development is not closed by any means - the devs just want to know who sees the source - and do their very best to keep ICMS code - ideas- and features in ICMS. Once a release has been made the source for that release will be openly available, but it is in the best interest of the project to make sure that no more raping of all of the developers hard work continues.
Please do your very best to read between the lines there.
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| Tom |
Posted: 2009/1/29 10:49 Updated: 2009/1/31 20:58 |
Home away from home  Joined: 2007/12/4 From: Under the sea. Posts: 1281 |
Re: We're On Trac! Hi Tester.Quote: As a user I just want to download the trunk as "anonymous" without being forced to login. That's how it was on SourceForge, and that's how it should be here. Why do you believe that's how it should be here? Quote: Unless it's really about "secrets"... I don't see what secrets there could be? If a user can develop code and wishes to develop for the core then they can apply, it's still open and new developers will get a mentor during their introductory period to ImpressCMS thus giving better support to developers and ensuring poor quality code is not committed because it will be reviewed. Doing it this way will also minimise support time in assisting with unstable, unreleased and unfinished code, if people still want to test the code prior to release they will be able to join a testing team whose job it will be to find issues and have them fixed before release. (More news will follow on this). The code will still ultimately be released and will open. Hi pnlarsson.Quote: Why not leave it open for everybody to see? We're just ensure the code produced in our project is released by our project first for end users to have. Quote: I haven't found any other open-source project that hides the development like this. I'm not sure why there would be a need for others to be doing it first just to justify the reason we are but if you want an example then OSTube is one: http://www.ostube.deExamples within a project shows many developments not done in an open SVN, modules are one example, how many module developers do you see developing code in an open SVN? How many Theme developers do you see developing code in an open SVN? Lets look at the Joomla project extensions because they have tons of them available but compared to how many are released and available, have you seen how many have an open SVN which are developed in? These are all open source also and the answer is very little. Quote: Sorry it i'm nagging, but this sercretish is giving a bad feeling, and going against all i believe open-source stands for. I don't think your nagging, your raising an issue which you wish to understand better and so it should be welcomed  I respectfully think you might have the wrong understanding about the definition of Open Source. Quote: Open source doesn't mean you have to show the code prior to release, it doesn't mean it's free as a in beer either, but what it does mean is that once the code is released under Open Source that anyone can use it, modify it, or do what ever they wish to it. All we're doing is ensuring you, the community get our code, developed by us, first. ;-) And to quote my good friend above: Quote: The development is not closed by any means - the devs just want to know who sees the source - and do their very best to keep ICMS code - ideas- and features in ICMS. Once a release has been made the source for that release will be openly available, but it is in the best interest of the project to make sure that no more raping of all of the developers hard work continues. Move this discussion to the forums if you wish to continue it!
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| tester |
Posted: 2009/1/31 17:24 Updated: 2009/1/31 17:24 |
Just popping in Joined: 2008/8/24 From: Posts: 5 |
Re: We're On Trac! MrTheme:Quote: The development is not closed by any means - the devs just want to know who sees the source - and do their very best to keep ICMS code - ideas- and features in ICMS Thank you for the confirmation. So it is about control ("who sees the code") and it is about secrets ("keep ICMS code - ideas- and features in ICMS"). I think, that explains a lot in which direction ImpressCMS is going. I understand that you want to clean up the mess you caused by a chaotic development, but from a user perspective, it is totally wrong not to allow anonymous access to SVN! From over 100,000 projects on SourceForge, I am not aware of any that would do it. Is this the reason why you moved away from SourceForge because you couldn't exclude anonymous users from accessing the code? BTW - you've promised in your open letter that "Will make all decisions by consensus". I don't see any discussion about this in the forums here. Does it mean that despite all the promises to keep ImpressCMS development open, there are some secret forums where those issues are being discussed and decisions being made? Are these decisions are made now by the secret ImpressCMS Board? Who are the members of the Board? Is this the end of Open Source development at ImpressCMS? Secret code, secret decisions, secret Board? What is happening here?
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| JMorris |
Posted: 2009/1/31 19:36 Updated: 2009/1/31 19:36 |
Home away from home  Joined: 2007/12/4 From: in yur serps fukn up yur rankn Posts: 199 |
Re: We're On Trac! Please see the following resources on what constitutes Open Source. http://www.opensource.org/docs/osdhttp://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl.htmlThe source code is released w/ ImpressCMS and no part of its development or distribution is in violation of the Open Source definition or the GNU/GPL under which ImpressCMS is licensed. Anyone is free to request access to developmental source code. The source code of the release versions is readily available to everyone in the world to see. Everything needed to enable users to provide feedback, suggestions and bug fixes has been provided and documented. |
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| Vaughan |
Posted: 2009/1/31 19:44 Updated: 2009/1/31 20:12 |
Home away from home Joined: 2007/12/4 From: Derbyshire/UK Posts: 1672 |
Re: We're On Trac! end of open source? lmao
if it were the end of open source, then we'd be closing the source code off, and it wouldn't be GPL. but since we are writing open-source code, and it is GPL, then obviously this is not the end of open source!! is it?
if you want access to SVN all you need to do is ask. that's no secret.
but who are you to state that we do not have open source development? of course you are entitled to your own opinion, but that is all it is. your interpretation of open-source development is maybe different to other peoples.
now if you want to discuss this further, please use the proper channels, because i won't let this go on like a childish opinion bashing argument. i'm sure you already read the answers to your questions somewhere ;-)
nothing is set in stone here, we are trying many things. sometimes we make wrong decisions, sometimes we make good decisions. if you want to offer constructive help then you are free to do so.
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| pnlarsson |
Posted: 2009/1/31 19:45 Updated: 2009/1/31 19:45 |
Just popping in Joined: 2008/1/10 From: Gothenburg Posts: 13 |
Re: We're On Trac! Hmm, what happened to the post made by skenow 20-30 minits ago???
I don't think you are breaking the law of GPL or OpenSource, but what i belive OpenSource stands for.
And where was the discussion done that lead up to the move to trac? Or is it only the voices of devs that are important?
A small bug report - the links i the menu: Get involved! are still pointing to sf.
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| Vaughan |
Posted: 2009/1/31 20:02 Updated: 2009/1/31 20:02 |
Home away from home Joined: 2007/12/4 From: Derbyshire/UK Posts: 1672 |
Re: We're On Trac! Quote:
And where was the discussion done that lead up to the move to trac? Or is it only the voices of devs that are important?
please don't take this the wrong way. in my opinion, the move to Trac was a developer decision but theme developers & translators etc are all classed as developers aswell and it's those people that are actually using the system for uploading code & not just downloading it. but either way, Trac is a far better system to work with and will benefit everyone in the long run, afterall those using the SVN & Trac service as developers can better manage their commits & tickets. maybe we should be more transparent? |
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| skenow |
Posted: 2009/1/31 20:16 Updated: 2009/1/31 20:16 |
Home away from home Joined: 2007/12/4 From: Eagan, MN (GMT-6) Posts: 2446 |
Re: We're On Trac! Quote: Hmm, what happened to the post made by skenow 20-30 minits ago??? I'm not sure what you are referring to - I haven't posted anything today. |
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| pnlarsson |
Posted: 2009/1/31 20:23 Updated: 2009/1/31 20:23 |
Just popping in Joined: 2008/1/10 From: Gothenburg Posts: 13 |
Re: We're On Trac! Quote: maybe we should be more transparent? This is the biggest issue i think, there where no open discussion before - and it goes against what was said in the open letter from the start of impresscms. And i love trac myself - i fully understand the move, i just don't like the "extras". Quote: please don't take this the wrong way. I'm not, but you wan't the community to be involved - then this approch is not the right way |
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| skenow |
Posted: 2009/1/31 20:43 Updated: 2009/1/31 22:07 |
Home away from home Joined: 2007/12/4 From: Eagan, MN (GMT-6) Posts: 2446 |
Re: We're On Trac! Quote: Is this the end of Open Source development at ImpressCMS? Secret code, secret decisions, secret Board? What is happening here?
Status: Active
IP: 66.90.73.125 All this from a secret poster, hiding behind a username and using an anonymous proxy. Sorry if I find this rather humorous. Seriously, if there is more to discuss, please use the forums for this purpose. The comments are not the place for discussions. |
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| McDonald |
Posted: 2009/2/8 8:35 Updated: 2009/2/8 8:35 |
Home away from home Joined: 2007/12/4 From: Abyss Posts: 1450 |
 Re: We're On Trac! The only positive thing about this Trac system is the speed of accessing files during browsing or committing.
Fot the rest it's completely crap.
Module developers can't close tickets and tickets are assigned to one person only.
At this moment I'm thinking of going back to Sourceforge.
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| stranger |
Posted: 2009/2/8 8:47 Updated: 2009/2/8 8:47 |
Home away from home  Joined: 2008/1/9 From: Anversa. Posts: 1160 |
Re: We're On Trac! Hi McDonald, it works for me, when I type Fixes #221 it automatically closes that ticket number. it's much more easier! have you studied this page? http://wiki.impresscms.org/index.ph ... de_changesotherwise it might be a permission issue, You can contact Marc about this. |
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| trabis |
Posted: 2009/2/8 11:46 Updated: 2009/2/8 11:46 |
Home away from home  Joined: 2007/12/4 From: Portugal Posts: 351 |
Re: We're On Trac! "We are importing our data today and as such, we need to make sure our SVN and trackers on SourceForge are frozen. To achieve this, we are now removing your access to these resources on SourceForge. But don't worry, you will soon get new access to our Trac platform where you will be able to do even more !
Before we issue you with the new access, we would look everyone to make personal contact with Marcan to confirm they wish to continue working within the project. This is to save us unneeded work should someone be to preoccupied and have other things on their plate at the moment. Don't worry though if you wish to participate at a later date then just get in contact again, we're always here if you need us!"
Yes, prune your developers. Educate them, control their commits.
Regarding hiding the code to XOOPS developers, last time I notice there was no gold there, just spaghetti.
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| davidl2 |
Posted: 2009/2/8 12:28 Updated: 2009/2/8 12:28 |
Home away from home  Joined: 2007/12/4 From: Posts: 3578 |
Re: We're On Trac! McDonald - we'll certainly check into this for you, as the tickets are rather powerful - but seem to have some issues as you mention.
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| marcan |
Posted: 2009/2/8 12:32 Updated: 2009/2/8 13:52 |
Home away from home  Joined: 2007/12/4 From: Montreal | Canada Posts: 1352 |
Re: We're On Trac! McDonald, it is true that we focused more on the Core Trac then the Addons Trac. Please get in touch with me this week via MSN so we can discuss what improvement we can add to the Addons Trac to make it more useful for everyone. And I don't see any problem for the modules developer to have management rights on tickets. In fact, I was on the impression it was like that. This is surely a change we can do quickly tomorrow.
Come talk to me and explain what else you believe is needed t omake the Addons Trac a success just like the Core Trac is.
Let me know !
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| MrTheme |
Posted: 2009/2/8 12:59 Updated: 2009/2/8 12:59 |
Home away from home Joined: 2007/12/4 From: Fort Worth, TX Posts: 2588 |
Re: We're On Trac! Quote: Regarding hiding the code to XOOPS developers, last time I notice there was no gold there, just spaghetti. I have no idea what this is supposed to mean, but other projects are more than welcome to be "inspired" by impresscms, I just think its best if they aren't being "inspired" before we have a chance to release the original in our own project. We certainly have enough innovation and achievement for several projects to thrive under - but its only fair as icms is the one doing the work that icms should get first dibs on it. Just my opinion of course.  |
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| trabis |
Posted: 2009/2/8 13:30 Updated: 2009/2/8 13:30 |
Home away from home Joined: 2007/12/4 From: Portugal Posts: 351 |
Re: We're On Trac! With spaghetti I mean confuse code. There is a lot of diverging in code implementation, no respect for the coding standards, along with doubtful sanitizing methods which are leading to many complains in the forum. This is why I can doubt that your code would be taken to use in other cms. If this new tool allows you to better code, then fine. I think it does not, what you need is better supervision. Will track give you that? I hope so. I´m looking forward to see the results.
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| MrTheme |
Posted: 2009/2/8 13:37 Updated: 2009/2/8 13:37 |
Home away from home Joined: 2007/12/4 From: Fort Worth, TX Posts: 2588 |
Re: We're On Trac! That is precisely the reason why the move to Trac was so important, to manage exactly what goes in - and to have other devs audit the work before it is approved. This way everyone is aware of and comfortable with the changes.
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| marcan |
Posted: 2009/2/8 13:47 Updated: 2009/2/8 13:47 |
Home away from home Joined: 2007/12/4 From: Montreal | Canada Posts: 1352 |
Re: We're On Trac! Hi Trabis, I understand what you mean and of course you are entitled to your opinion. It is not one that I shared, but I do respect it. One of the most important aspect in our project is security. If we can improve something that will enhance user security, we will. And this has been one of the driving forces of ImpressCMS since the beginning. Yes, it can sometimes lead to some constraints and some frustrations, which we are trying to overcome as we grow. There are many CMS around and all have thekir strength and flaws. At the end of the day, one uses the product which better suit his needs. If it is ImpressCMS, we will be very happy, if it is not and the user wishes to share his experience and thoughts, we will be equally happy as this may help us improve our product for the future. Trac allows us to better manage product development by being more efficient and by removing much of the extra overhead needed by the tools at SourceForge. Removing overhead allows us to use these saved resources to improve the product. As for better supervision, I am very happy you bring this point and you are absolutely right. This is one our our top priority for 2009. We have implemented the ImpressCMS Commit Policy which is strictly enforced by a Commit Review Policy. Since our move to Trac, every single commit made in the /core module is reviewed by another developer, ensuring the changeset respect our Commit Policy and ensuring the added or changed code respect our standards and the overall goals we are trying to achieve. This will input much more unity in our development and we have already started to see the results. I truly hope these explanations help you better understand the path we are now going. 2008 was a great year for ImpressCMS, and 2009 will be even better! Cordially, |
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| trabis |
Posted: 2009/2/8 14:33 Updated: 2009/2/8 14:33 |
Home away from home Joined: 2007/12/4 From: Portugal Posts: 351 |
Re: We're On Trac! It does Marcan, that is what I was needing to ear, thanks.
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| McDonald |
Posted: 2009/2/9 18:47 Updated: 2009/2/9 18:47 |
Home away from home Joined: 2007/12/4 From: Abyss Posts: 1450 |
Re: We're On Trac! @marcan, I guess I figured it out after stranger answered my post here. We might need a short guide for using ImpressCMS with Trac for developers ( ImpressCMS on Trac for dummies) with a link to this doc on the Trac frontpages. On the frontpage of Trac is a link to Help/Guide. To me this looks more like a manual for administrators. The page about Tickets talks about 'Resolution'. I've been looking for ages where this setting was, but couldn't find it. |
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